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| mike5 |
 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:32 am |
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Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 46
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It's becoming awesome. Who says you need tons of textures and stuff.
Br, Mike5 |
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| charon |
| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:20 pm |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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I made an (almost) complete todo list for OOOO, but it contains spoilers so I'm not posting it here... There are 215 items on it... 
At least I have a more accurate progress indicator now, and I'll be able to post the current 'score' from time to time / edit this post.
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SCORE: 0 / 215 |
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| prijatev |
| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:49 pm |
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Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Prule, 15 minut od Lavrce
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this is somehow far fetched: co-op multiplayer...
...there's a segment of multiplayer gaming I have in mind which is not covered at all or at least not enough. Some sort of semi-contact multiplayer mode where a player could interact with the game environment without the lag and online presence problems. I'm not sure if OOO can play the case subject here, but here are some propositions:
Lag problems: players' immediate game objectives must not overlap
Problem:
If one player selects and executes an interaction with a game object, there is a chance that someone else (other player) has same thing in mind, or worse: is already doing the same (valid) interaction.
Manifestation:
Characters targeted (or worse: shot) by you are dead before your bullet hit them. A door is destroyed by player B instead of lock-picked by player A,...
Possible solution:
Player characters have distinctive roles, hence different targets. Let's narrow down the subject to military vocabulary: sapper, sharpshooter, assault trooper,... diplomat, trader, grunt, scientist, hacker,... Hmm: Gandalf, Frodo&Sam, rest of the bunch: they separate at some point, don't they? Include a NPC (Gollum or such) and you have a powerful semi-detached corpus, capable of doing great things (or great fuckups) to help the coalition. There could even be some sort of a chain of command and different game environment view (tactical, strategic,...). OOO: an assault team can occupy a building, security team can secure it (duh...) and some sort of trader (research, enclave, factory,.... team/character,...) could make an HQ out of it.
Online presence: player can leave the game and the game still runs while other players interact with the environment
Persistence is a major problem here gamedesign-wise. If a character role is action oriented (grunt), the game needs to have a roster of players that are somehow available to 'do' (shoot) things. If a character role is a stationary one, an easy to use script that handles the player's absence could become handy (trader sets buy/sell rates, scientist sets research vs. complexity of an item, a stronghold owner sets trap locations, sentry robots,...). What happens if a player's HQ is destroyed while he's offline? Can a player character be shot (eaten) while 'sleeping'? Is it up to the player to choose a 'safety rating' of the safe ground regarding to the time he's expecting to be offline and accept the risk to become dead? How to join different frequency of many players' engagement in one game environment? Many question marks here, I admit...
Maybe this subject deserves a separate thread, dunno..., but I would really (really, really, really) like to play OOO (and other games) co-op (or DM, TeamDM) with a couple of my friends out there! Imagine an assault trooper luring zombies into an ambush with some claymores set by a sapper on each side of an alley and one minigun nest firing out from the cellar window... or quick run into enemy territory with a sniper support from the roofs. Or a scientist/hacker with remote cameras access, coordinating an attack. Or separate ways (LOTR style) focusing on many story objectives at a time. Dungeon master vs. hero party: was it possible to play a hero while some other player controlled the horde and locations in Dungeon Keeper game? I'm aware that a human can't play zombie swarm consciousness, though... |
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| charon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:25 am |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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Yes but you're forgetting the fact that a multiplayer game like that needs an entirely different data structure, alternative presentation algorithems, ai, in short, almost everything becomes like 3 times bigger and more complicated... I don't really see myself doing all that work, unles I can make OOOO single player successfull enough (read - a bomb) to motivate me for that undertaking... 
And... I'm at the point when I'm still looking for someone to help me design GUI... so multiplayer is like on another planet. |
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| Pete |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:52 am |
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Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 36
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| When you say you need someone to design the GUI, do you mean from a coding standpoint or someone to come up with the layout and structure? |
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| charon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:21 am |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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Design, layout, graphical elements, structure.
I'll do the coding myself  |
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| augustus |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:27 am |
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Imperator
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 59
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Pete: I think charon means layout, structure, graphical design, controls/usability/ergonomics etc. I am quite happy with the existing graphical design (e.g. transparent character sheet with simple bars), but charon wants something nicer/better. More importantly, controls and usability have to be finalized. You already suggested to use a marking menu as a part of the interface, and that is certainly one of the options. I believe one of the "bonus mission objectives" is that the game would be playable by keyboard only.
Edit 1: I didn't see charon's post and thought he was away (from computer/internet) so I posted in his name 
Edit 2: after a chat with charon it seems that the PC version will not be striving towards keyboard-only after all (see next posts) |
Last edited by augustus on Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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| prijatev |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:33 am |
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Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Prule, 15 minut od Lavrce
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Yes, I knew this was wrong thread. But anyway...
The other day I was helping MaxTrauma (or what's his forum nick) to move his old TV set away and unpack a fancy new HD LCD one and we tested its HD capabilities with xBox360. I was skeptic about xBox games at first, but then we tried LEGO StarWars. It's a coop multiplayer on one screen (split screen games suck!). At start, players control Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Camera is smart enough to allow player characters to go quite apart and they are still seen on screen. Later on, other characters join the party (3PO, R2, Leia, Padme, Jar Jar,...), each with his unique capabilities so players choose an appropriate character to perform different tasks and the synchronized ones. It's quite fun but still complex (ok, age rating is 3+), we couldn't stop playing and I'm looking forward to get it on my Wii. This design is not 3 times bigger than singleplayer, I guess.
Nevermind.
Gui: I migrated to console games about a year ago, when I got myself a Nintendo Wii and I love the control scheme of most of them gamepad (not necessarily accelerometer powered) games. Menu system that developers used in Zelda (Twilight princess) is perfect. I think OOO too should be playable with a gamepad. Gui is supposed to be tightly connected to the controls, right? Later, when the game and enemies evolve, you will probably need some other targeting system than 'shoot nearest'... like target cycling (left, right) perhaps?
With one button you could open map, inventory and stats all in tabs (cursor left-right to switch between tabs, and when you press down, you navigate within one tab). Camera and movement is tricky. You want to control character movement and camera at the same time. Does that mean two separate directional controls? In Zelda you had to stop to change camera (using movement directional button in combo with some other button). In OOO that would be suicide. Luckily, all modern gamepads have at least two directional buttons, but you need one to quick navigate through inventory and special items, abilities (in inventory mode there is no time freeze) and eventually some similar buttons for target cycling? Many actions can be performed with simple button combos.
Graphically, stats and items are in 3rd person 3D games least obtrusive in corners, usually right or left upper corner, while moving camera focus (player character) a bit below the vertical middle of the screen. But in OOO you don't look Omar in his back like in most of 3rd person 3D games. Health and infestation don't need to be so large because you don't need such accuracy there. It could even be in discrete form, allowing it to visually grow when you brush up on your skills and stats. I don't think you need visual and sonic exposition gauges because the environment (shades, bushes, line of sight) and sounds (footsteps, gunfire, quiet and noisy areas) should cover that aspect of gameplay. Sneaking is done by moving slower (combo: movement + some other button). Ammo gauge could be smaller (circular?), your wolfenstein-style bruised, scared, sleepy, hungry face is not a bad idea,...
To cut this drool: we can meet some day and look at the Wii games (Zelda, Resident Evil,...) and their control schemes and gui. Because those are 'a bomb' games in this action adventure rpg genre like OOO. |
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| charon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:17 am |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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At least I solved my prototype GUI problems. I increased the font size for status (hunger, fear, walking mode) to match other text on the screen, and added the experience bar on top of the busy bar. In the final release, I'd like to put the whole inventory on-screen, even if it's just a row or two of small icons, so the player may select one (mouse or keyboard) and use it (by double clicking or having another key as 'use') - in prototype GUI, only the name of selected item will be displayed.
Weapons are shown separately, and a different key is used for rotating through the list (like Tab is currently used). Shortcuts may also be used to select the first weapon / cycle through weapons of certain type (ie melee weapons, mechanical melee weapons, pistols, shotguns, automatic weapons...).
When Omar is in contact with one or several interaction 'hotspots' (building entrances, vehicles, walls & fences, phone-booths etc) they will be shown as icons in the top-right corner of the screen (same as building entrances are in the prototype). Pressing 'enter' while in contact will always pause the game - if there is a single contact, the game will instantly switch to 'menu/building' mode, presenting different options depending on hotspot/building type and state. For hotspots that are not buildings, options may be grayed out depending on zombie presence - ie you cannot expect Omar to try repairing a car while under attack, also an action outside buildings is more likely to get interrupted by sudden zombie appearance.
When multiple hotspots are in contact, first enter pauses the game and the player may use item cycling keys to cycle through contacts. Second enter confirms the contact, again switching to menu. To simplify things a bit, however, the building entrance contact, if present (the way the city is created, it is impossible for Omar to be in contact with two building entrances at the same time) will always be listed as first, so simply double-pressing enter will always take you into the building.
I was thinking about marking menus but the problem I see here is that eventually, Omar might include a whole lot of different interactions with buildings, items and other entities in the city. In terms of marking menus, this means lots and lots of icons to paint, which, once you have a big bunch of them, becomes even harder to make them distinguishable.
So I suggest menus similar to those found in 'How To Be A Complete Bastard', a classical ZX Spectrum game (I'm sure other games have menus like that but this one was the first I could think of  )... Essentially context-generated pop-down menus, for example options for a whiskey bottle might be the following: Make a sip / Drink it all / Make a bomb (but only if you got a tissue). I'd combine this with some kind of drag & drop, ie pick up a battery and drag it to the flashlight, or take a tissue and drag it on the whiskey bottle... again if there are more than one options for interacting two items, a menu appears.
I'm even toying with the idea that certain item interactions may only be performed within a (secured) building. So you can change the flashlight batteries even in the street, but not so for the metal detector, which requires careful dissasembly. Certain interactions might even require special facilities, a lab for mixing up chemicals, a workshop for repairing a broken weapon.
One problem that reamins is zombie body interaction. The player should be able to pick up smaller objects from zombie corpses, like keys, batteries, smaller weapons, passcards... blood samples. Metal detector might help with this but it shouldn't be required. I don't want it bunched up with other hotspot interactions though, because there's so many bodies that icon row will be flashing in and out all the time.
A few thoughts for now, expect more in the future. |
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| charon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:34 am |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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Ok lots of people posting at the same time, that doesn't happen very frequently on this forum...
Re: multiplayer. Yeah, my 3-time bigger everything was mostly because to make OOO multiplayer, we'd need to make it multicharacter first, and that is where the real challenges and complexity issues lie. Also your saying multiplayer, my initial association was 'network multiplayer' even if you haven't specifically said so. Single machine/single screen multiplayer should indeed be fairly easy to implement, once when/if multicharacter is possible.
Re: console gui & control. It's an option that I'd be willing to implement, once I get more familiar with that style (show me show me ) but I think mouse control should stay as an alternative. Even in OOO, you could use mouse to select the target manually, overriding the nearest zombie autotargetting, and I am planning on keeping that feature in OOOO. |
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| charon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:44 am |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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Oh, I forgot...
Re: Stealth & visibility indicator - I agree there should be no such thing, the environment itself provides enough clues for that.
Re: Health / infection accuracy - Not entirely sure about that, myself. In final OOOO, there won't be an option of just 'finding' the vaccine, you'll have to find a scientist to do the research and actually 'invent' it. So the infection might play a considerable role in your gameplay if Omar gets infected early in the game and the player decides not to restart. The development of infection will be much slower, certain drugs might slow it down even more, etc. Also depending on the duration of the infection, it might give Omar some special 'powers', stat boosts at minimum. |
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| mike5 |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:55 pm |
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Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 46
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charon wrote: Also depending on the duration of the infection, it might give Omar some special 'powers', stat boosts at minimum.
Oooh, oooh...
The chance of a zombie attack should decrease, as you get more "zombified" (Omar is becoming one of them after all).
Also, this gives me the idea of a special bomb/flask that would get zombies in a killing frenzy (not knowing who is friend or foe, and attacking every moving target including other zombies). You can make that bomb rare enough, but it would get extra fun when Omar gets to a location where zombie infection is extremely high and Omar drops it from the roof. 
Cheers, Mike5 |
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| charon |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:19 pm |
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Postojna, ksno urco od Lavrce
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Neat... We could call that Pheromone Y
Edit: Actually it might make more sense to call /this/ one X and the other one Y. |
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| augustus |
| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:52 pm |
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Imperator
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 59
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Re: Health / infection indicator display/accuracy
Just an idea, I am not suggesting this (I actually think it's rather ugly), but it takes very little screen space: I've seen indicator implemented as a "multi level" pie chart, first a green pie turns into a yellow one, and then into a red one. Works with bars also. Hm ... is this already implemented in ooo/oooo? Don't remember |
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| caghan |
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:00 pm |
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Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 2
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| ooo! awesome definately awesome.. but can we save before exit the game? (and how can we exit except alt+f4?) |
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